Tuesday, March 27, 2007

Another Former PBBC Student Speaks Out

I was perusing Sharper Iron the other day and noticed that someone else who attended PBBC back in the 70's commented on the Jack Schaap debacle. I suppose this is a follow up on our previous post "Pillsbury Baptist Bible College Defended"


Here is the link directly to his post regarding Pastor Schaap's sermon--very interesting.
IMHO, Pastor Schaap needs to realize that with modern inventions such as the internet all of his stories will be checked. Gone are the days of "just wingin'it" and being able to get away with it! May the LORD give us more preachers and pastors who break this mold and endeavor to preach the Word instead of building their legacy/image.

PT Barnum

11 comments:

Jim said...

I wonder if Schaap will have the attitude that he will never be exposed?

David T. said...

Dr. Kevin Bauder wrote:
"Beginning theologians may find this situation unnerving. The yearning for epistemological certainty is strong. Consequently, immature theologians often experience a powerful urge to retreat from at least some of the evidence. They close the eyes of their minds and pretend that it does not exist. The result is a state of self-deception that leads to unwarranted dogmatism. Because the certainty of such theologians is only illusory, it is fragile and easily threatened. When they are pressed, these theologians are likely to resort to sneers, personal attacks, and even political maneuvers instead of careful arguments."
http://www.sharperiron.org/2007/03/27/the-use-of-scripture-in-theology-part-2-ambiguity/#more-1487

Describes the leadership of the Hammond crowd to a T.

Ultimately, the uncertainty left by a strict reading of the Scriptures requires IFBx teachers to find extra-Biblical sources of authority for their unique teachings in order to obtain the black-and-white clarity they demand. The call themselves Bible-believers then add to it.

And finally, as a dentist places a crown over an implant, the bluster and tall tales and pulpit antics that accompany such "teaching" seem to give it all an air of authority, strength, and resolve, and Holy Spirit filling, which is counterfeit.

I was reading an advertisement in the most recent SoTL for a teen conference, which quoted 1Cr 2:4
"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:"
...Below this Scripture was a collage of photos showing various preachers making gestures with hands raised and feet in the mid-stomp position. I just had to shake my head.

Lastly, like Dr. Bauder mentioned above, their response to any sort of challenge to what they teach ends up in "sneers, personal attacks, and even political maneuvers instead of careful arguments."

PT Barnum said...

Jim,

Thanks for the question--I am not sure whether it would matter to Schaap or those who look to FBCH for leadership. I still believe that many caught in that web would not accept certain accusations even if you had an 8X11 glossy print of the act!

David,

Once again you have added some very good thoughts about those in IFBxdom. Personal attacks and rants from the pulpit are not uncommon and usually all arguments come down to accusing the other side of being either "liberal", "neo-evangelical", or "homosexual". In some cases all of the above are attached to those who disagree with their dogmatic trumpeting of matters the Scriptures are silent about. Thanks for the quotes from Dr. Bauder--he is solid.

PT Barnum

David T. said...

jim...

The rhetoric which passes for preaching produces a fear and thus a dependancy in the listeners. They will not listen.

The best way for a person in this fear to break free is to find a church that outwardly has all the standards and KJVO but bases it all on grace and true expositional teaching. In this environment the person will have the chance to ground their spirituality in the Scripture instead of in the rhetoric. Having done so this person SHOULD be a lot more flexible in understanding, co-existing, and being nice to people who are different, because the root of fear has been replaced with the root of knowledge. Fear is primarily a lack of knowledge.
This is not to say the person will use an NIV or listen to Jars of Clay but their spiritual walk will be actually spiritual instead of carnal.

You imitate what you follow and when you spiritually follow flesh you become fleshly. Conservative pragmatism is a hallmark of these churches and as such, carnality pervades these churches to a shocking degree. They follow the "right methods" and the "right men" who use the "right methods" and get wrapped up in works according to man's wisdom. Understanding the intrinsic connection between pragmatism and carnality is crucial to understanding the movement.

Ironically, the pragmatic successes, which themselves are spiritually empty, are used to prove how spiritual the church and its leadership is.

The people within these churches then, are not only held in fear because of pulpit rhetoric, but held in deceit by the apparent "spiritual" successes of the ministry.

The answer here to remember that our life is hid with Christ in God and that our job is to abide in Him. If our relationship with God is right we can be sure everything else is right whether that means pastoring a church of 10,000 or going to work every day and singing in the choir. It is on this basis that Paul can say, who are you to judge another man's servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. Yes, and God is able to make him stand. (my paraphrase)
If you don't think I am effective for Christ or winning enough souls or what have you, pick the beam out of your own eye.

Fear and pragmatism combine to create judgementalism. Yet more carnality.

Anonymous said...

DavidT,

Seems like you are the one with the problem in being judgemental. We can only see the outside and God looks on our hearts. If your salvation doesn't make a difference in how you look than I don't doubt your salvation but I doubt your sanctification. I don't look down on those who don't dress or act like Christians ought to...I am aware that everyone is growing in the Lord at a different rate.

People like you and those who write on this blog are some of the most judgemental I have ever come across...all the time yapping about the "fact" that we IFBXERS or whatever else you call us are Pharisees! I am up to my gills with all the accusing of Pastor Schaap and good men in the ministry as liars just because you don't believe a certain story could have happened. Were you there? Did you see things happen differently? Do you know anyone personaly who was a witness? I will not receive an accusation against a proven pastor by some anonymous accuser. Call me what you like but I have too much respect for those you attack with your blog...Pillsbury is about to go under and it won't be missed by this poster.

BC

Fundamentally Reformed said...

"I was reading an advertisement in the most recent SoTL for a teen conference, which quoted 1Cr 2:4
"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:" ...Below this Scripture was a collage of photos showing various preachers making gestures with hands raised and feet in the mid-stomp position. I just had to shake my head."

David,

I thought the exact same thing!

Thanks for your thoughts here.

Blessings in Christ,

Bob Hayton

Fundamentally Reformed said...

All,

With respect to David's second post he is right on. The answer for everyone is not necessarily bailing on fundamentalism in general. Finding a word-based, spiritual church (with whatever combination of standards) is very important.

There is a real "control" that people in IFBx places exercise. And it damages many people.

IFBx leaders are judgmental of others, but that takes different forms. I do see a certain amount of latitude in Hyles circles. They have certain non-negotiables like KJV onlyism, and perhaps pants on women being wrong, but they allow for varying stripes as long as soulwinning is key. In a certain sense this is commendable.

Others are more direct in their judgmentalism. They actually decry almost every form of fundamentalism except their own.

Judging is not all bad, however. We are to prove all things and hold fast to what is good. So if certain positions and practices of whatever school with whatever leader don't line up with Scripture, and if they are damaging the faith of many believers, then we are right to evaluate and expose them.

The issue with the IFBx isn't strictly judgmentalism. It is an unspiritual excercise of leadership, coupled by unscriptural positions, which sets up a system which is basically man-centered. This system seems to be spiritual and Biblical, but is perpetuated through carnal means.

I am definitely glad about the good things that come from Hammond. The bloggers who own this blog would agree. We are all happy for each bus kid who is genuinely reached and whose life is changed.

The gospel is important, and I am happy it is going forth. But I am not happy about the many lives that are ruined by the system that Schaap and others perpetuate.

I wish they would change and reform. But sadly we can assume they won't. This blog is aimed at helping spread a reformation and to help those who are hurt and stuck in the situation. At least that is my take on it.

If BC (or anonymous) is really concerned, he would do well to look at the blogs here and elsewhere. Honestly try to hear what we are saying. This is not simple mudslinging, no matter what the leaders say about it. This is honest, sincere, Biblically based, criticism. And Proverbs says you're a fool to not take heed.

We would all love to have some genuine interaction by one of your group. Someone who patiently tried to explain his point of view, instead of just writing us off as a bunch of whining cry babies. What we say is serious. What Matt and Josh Richards bring up on this blog is serious. It hasn't received serious treatment by anyone of your camp.

Step up to the plate, the onus is on you. Please try to prove us wrong. We really wish we were wrong, that lives aren't being destroyed week in and week out from this brand of extreme fundamentalism. I could send you 30 emails or more of people who have said to one degree or another they were harmed by this kind of fundamentalism. I'm sure the other guys here could add to that number awful fast.

Seriously, we don't want to belittle you or not take you seriously. We honestly are trying to effect change. So take this challenge, I'm sure that the Richard's brothers are up for it. Show us how we are wrong.

May Christ be exalted even in disagreements here. May Jesus be our hope and our stay. May he help those who need help regarding this issue, and may His Spirit guide us into all truth.

Blessings in Christ,

Bob Hayton

PT Barnum said...

Bob,

Great thoughts--thanks for sharing them. I believe that many times when someone in the land of IFBx and they want to escape that they are tempted to throw everything away. I have seen many who left the movement only to end up as castaways--I take no joy in seeing this happen. I believe the healthy way to leave this group is to just begin taking steps towards a more Christ-centered life. IMHO there are some people who cannot survive outside of the bubble of cultural fundamentalism--at least not right away. I will stop rambling now but thanks for the input!

Pt Barnum

Jeri said...

You probably know this already, but there appears to have been some sort of kibosh put on internet usage during the most recent pastor's School. A few hardcore posters on the Fundamental Forums have nearly disappeared. One of the more moderate Hyles grads commented that the FFF was specifically named in a session, and Schaap went after pastors who waste their time on the internet.

At first I thought his rebuke was a direct result of the bad press that the infantile behavior of some graduates on the FFF had generated. But now that I have read your post here and checked the refs you provided, I am wondering if Schaap realizes that the entire internet (or at least the "Christian Blogosphere") is dangerous and needs to be avoided. It has the power to contradict him, prove him wrong, and catch him in deceptions.

And, I wonder, was the editorial from SotL timed to coincide with Schaap's rebuke for too much time spent on the internet (just musing on this).

"The Captain" said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
"The Captain" said...

The captain put his foot in his mouth. Maybe that is gluttony? Sorry Pt.
Jeff