Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Veto Power--Not Just For the POTUS

I was reminded recently of a teaching I encountered as a young lad smack in the middle of IFBxdom. This teaching is what some have come to call "veto power". I know, I know--you thought that only the President of the United States had this power--you were dead wrong. Some within IFBx believe that the pastor or some other Christian leader ought to hold "veto power" over the decisions in your life. I know this is a foreign concept to most of you who are reading this, but let me assure you that it is taught among the cultural fundamentalists.

I want to begin by saying that I believe in wise Christian counsel--I believe in the Scriptural principle of seeking guidance or counsel when an important decision lays in the balance.

Proverbs 11:14 tells us: "Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in abundance of counselors there is safety." Proverbs 15:22 explains: "Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed." Lastly, Proverbs 24:6 says: "For by wise guidance you can wage your war, and in abundance of counselors there is victory." I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that it is our first priority to seek the LORD's guidance on everything. In those instances when we encounter a situation where God remains silent and we are struggling for peace, a group of wise Christian counselors is both a wise and scriptural principle.

All that being said, I recently picked up a copy of Christian Womanhood (a monthly magazine published by the ministries of the First Baptist Church of Hammond) and found an article that gave me pause. I believe that the lady who wrote this article is a fine Christian woman--I actually had the opportunity while in college of working with her and her family on an East Chicago bus route. My issue with this teaching is not directed at her personally and so I will withhold her name from this discussion.

Here is the paraphrased version of her story. She was a Hyles Anderson College student and away from home. She had been dating a man who I believe proposed to her and so she went in to see Pastor Hyles about it. She had already decided to adopt Pastor Hyles' teaching of "veto power" being held by ones pastor. Pastor Hyles listened as she explained the good news of her proposal--Pastor Hyles exercised his power of veto in this young lady's life and forbade her from accepting this marriage proposal. Later this same young lady met her husband and Pastor Hyles approved and they are still living happily ever after and working in the ministries of FBCH.

I love to hear stories about couples who have been married for 25, 30, 40, 50, and 60 years--we need more marriages like this in our culture today for sure! The only part of this story that I am taking issue with is the fact that this individual had given Pastor Hyles veto power in her life. I think everything worked out great for this particular lady, but I wonder how many other similar stories could be told with the exact opposite result?

I do not believe that FBC Hammond is a cult--I do believe that teachings like this about a pastor's "veto power" are unfortunately both cultic and unscriptural. I do not believe that every college student or member of FBCH has adopted this philosophy--I praise God for that. If you ever encounter someone trying to teach you this little-known doctrine run as fast as you can in the opposite direction!

PT Barnum


Anonymous said...

I was hopping you guys would stay gone from the world of blogging. Unfortunatley you both have decided to jump back in. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of giving your pastor veto power in your big decisions. I have no doubt that many tragedis have been prevented by the wise council of God's man. Doesn't Proverbs also say something about "he that winneth souls is wise"? I would not recomend that you guys give veto power to your pastors since they are not soulwinners. In my case it is perfectly fine because my pastor is a winner of souls.


elephantschild said...

Please DO keep posting. You have carefully explained the difference between seeking wise Christian counsel and handing total control over your life to another human being, no matter how Godly of a man he might be.

What a terrible burden to put on a Pastor, to make him 100% responsible for your life decisions. Isn't it enough that he must answer to our Lord for the spiritual care of his congregation? Now he must make material-world decisions for his flock as well?

PT Barnum said...


Thanks for checking out our blog. You are exactly right on with your observation. I don't want to give the impression that everyone in Hammond or at HAC gave Hyles or currently gives Schaap veto power. I think the very mention of such a thing by a pastor is very strange at the least and cultic at its worst.

I wish I would have ran for the hills the very first time I heard such a wacky teaching--for some reason I did not fully see its oddness until I left that group.

Sadly this type of stuff is romanticized and still being spread by way of Christian Womanhood magazine.

Hope you come back to see us often!

God bless,

PT Barnum

Wizzle said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PT Barnum said...

Here is wizzle's above deleted comment after I sent it through the wash a couple of times. Let's keep it clean--this is a family site! We would like any comment to be in a Christ-like spirit--we can disagree strongly with those in Hammond without stooping to

Wizzle said:

"Good post, Good post.
You guys are exactly right (except for the part that FBC is not a cult, they are a cult to the 5th degree) Anyways, this is the same type of brainwashing garbage that ole' jackie boy himself tried to pull on me.
At the end of my senior year in high school, ole' jackie boy set up "personal" meetings(you guys remember) with all the seniors so that he could exercise his "veto" power. I told him what I had thought about doing with my life and he told me that I should drop my wants and wishes and at least attend HAC for a year. The irony of your post is that I sat in his office thinking the same exact thing that you have posted. Why would anyone give another human being (especially ole' jackie boy) power over their life. This is one of the thousands of reasons that I consider FBC a cult.
When you compare Schaap & Hyles to the likes of Jim Jones & let's say Hitler, there aren't many differences. Each of these individuals is/was telling others that they should have "god-like" authority over their life. Like I have said many times before and will continue to say, JACK SCHAAP IS A VERY DANGEROUS PERSON. He hides behind the facade of being a man of god and tells others that because he holds such a position, they should listen to him and do what he says. HOGWASH & POPPYCOCK!!! He holds no such authority! Would people give a janitor say in thier life? I think not, so why is it that we would give a NORMAL, fast talking, human being any power at all. My guess is that because Schaap is a slicker and more refined version of Hyles (what hyles wished he could have been and the women drool over him like they do Osteen)
He can brainwash and manipulate that many more, that is the sad part.
ANYWAYS, the point of my ramblings is, I thank L.Ron Hubbard :)that I didn't listen to jack's garbage and if Schaap or anyone of his cronies attempt to give you advice on your life or anything remotely similar tell them to go jump off a bridge! That would be the best course of action since you are dealing with a cult.
Again, thaks for the post and "edward" if you had any guts at all, you'd post your full name. It must be pretty hard hiding in the shadows of the internet without anyone knowing who you are, be a man and post your name. Oh and by the way, just for a little FYI (since I'm sure you'll respond back about who do you think you are, etc...)Say hi to my brother in law Freddie DeAnda (pastor of the spanish church, preaches at pastors school, Youth Conference, etc...) actually, you could print it off and give it to him he might like a copy. If that doesn't work for you. Tell my mom Jane King "Hi" as well. She runs the Phoster Club, teaches at HAC and is some kind of counselor in RU. If that doesnt work tell my sister Ellie "Hi" as well, she talks at the Women's Spectacular, speaks at HAC, the list goes on and on. If you happen to print a copy for Fred, print one for ole schaap as well, I think he'd appreciate it." -Wheeler E. King

PT Barnum said...


Thanks for your thoughts--I enjoy reading your ramblings as long as they pass the smell test. I especially liked the way you tie Hyles, Hitler, Schaap, and Hubbard together--they do have a lot of similarities and differences as well.

I doubt Ed is going to reveal his true identity--no doubt his "preacher" would tan his hide! I rather enjoy his foolish rantings--they are the best proof of the wackiness in Hammond that we claim here at Bread and Circuses.

Take care and have a wonderful LORD's Day tomorrow as you worship Him.

PT Barnum

Anonymous said...


I don't use my full name becuase there are kooks like you out in the world. You seem like the type that would show up and go post office worker on me and my family. My heart brakes for your mother. She is a good woman and a fervent soulwinner. Your brother in law and sister are top notch as well and must be torn up over your disloyalty. Well, you have certainly found the right crowd to hang with...the Richard brothers are bitter and can't get over a dead man. They love nothing more than bringing up old issues and blaming their sorry lives on all things Hyles and Schaap.

I take great offence at your comparing Dr. Hyles and Hitler! How crazy is that? Hitler was a murderer and a Satan worshipper and Pastor Hyles gave his life for the lost. You must really be warped to believe that they are similar. You are the best proof of the fact that this place is just a place for washed up bitter ex-fundamental baptists.


William D said...

you don't think FBCH is a cult?
I remember hearing Dr. Hyles say: "We're not a dictatorship, but we're so close, you can't tell the difference." I would say the same thing about it being a cult. If it isn't one, it's so close to one, you can't tell the difference.

Wizzle said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wizzle said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PT Barnum said...


Thanks for stopping by and seeing us. I don't think FBC is a cult because of my close relationship with many who attend there. No one is forced to take things to the same level and there are many who attend there as bystanders on the sidelines without buying into much of the junk that we highlight here. I do agree that to many outsiders the church takes on a cultic flavor--especially if they are only exposed to the HAC crowd.


Hope you had a great Thanksgiving! I don't want to have to go to a deal where I have to approve posts before they are published--we only ask that things are done in a Christ-honoring way. I don't want to be a killjoy but we would rather be seen as such than allow offensive posts. We definitely want your feedback and input--just keep it clean. This is a rated G kind of blog and we are intent on keeping it that way.

PT Barnum

Anonymous said...

I am no longer amazed with the kind of things that are allowed on this blog. I have seen profanity and mockery that I don't even see among unsaved people. The fact that comments are not even moderated makes me think that the Richards boys don't care how base thigs become. You know that Whizzle has major problems but yet you encourage him in his rejection of Christianity because he agrees with you guys about FBC. I would ban Whizzle from posting on the blog if I was you and I would apologize to everyone here who had to be exsposed to his filthy language. I would also forbid him from linking to his godless website...I am not going to bet that anything will be done seeing as you all have an alliance in your hatred for FBC. No doubt you will be blinded by your hate and not willing to run someone off who is helping your one and only cause which is tarnishing FBC and Hyles Anderson in any way posible.


Joshua R said...

Anonymous ed,
If you haven't noticed already we basically ignore you as you are just that, anonymous. You also are making assumptions that are untrue, e.g. that we encourage Whizzle to reject Christianity. Believe it or not it seems that it is the people of your ilk that encourage him to do so.

If you haven't noticed already large portions of his posts have been edited/deleted. You seem to be the one who is blinded.

Wizzle said...

You know what would be really cool? Since you are anonymous, you should just change your name every time you post. Why? Because you can. Ex: Billy Bob, Sylvester, Hector, Fernando, Jack (forget that one) Leif, Rex (forget that one too) Walter, etc...
I'm just saying.....
-Da Wizzle

Go Bears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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