Saturday, July 08, 2006

If It Looks Like A Duck And Walks Like A Duck...


Daniel 1:8 ESV "But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the king's food, or with the wine that "he drank. Therefore he asked the chief of the eunuchs to allow him not to defile himself."

I wanted to take this opportunity to make a quick post concerning Youth Conference 2006 since it is set to commence in less than a week in beautiful Hammond, Indiana. If you have not had a chance to review the brochure for the upcoming Youth Conference at First Baptist Church of Hammond I highly recommend your taking a quick glance at it here.

It is amazing to me how anyone can still argue that First Baptist Church and Hyles-Anderson College are not unashamedly anthropocentric to the very core. On a regular basis I have sincere members of FBCH inform me just how much things have changed for the better at the old church downtown. The first couple of times that I heard this claim I was anxious to find out the reason for this conclusion--sadly after just a small amount of research all of these claims lose their credence.

This brings us to the topic at hand--a simple perusal of the brochure sent across the fruited plain promoting Youth Conference 2006. We are told that our teens should be resolved to stand and be one of the 10,000 people who attend Youth Conference this year! I can think of many things that Christian teens ought to be committed to--standing as one of 10,000 noses to be counted at FBCH does not make my list.

The brochure goes on to announce that interested teens will have the opportunity to hear some dynamic youth speakers! There will be a talent contest, three on three basketball tournament, dodgeball aplenty, and a chance to meet Jack Schaap at the altar on Thursday evening! Does anyone else notice the absence of a Cross-centered message? Some may think that we are nitpicking, but why is it that there is no mention of God's glory or the grace of God? I have seen some announcements for conferences and conventions in the past, but I do not think that I have ever seen one so void of anything Christ-exalting.



The dandelion of pragmatism is in full bloom at First Baptist of Hammond during this exciting time on the church calendar! Week after week and event after event FBCH just keeps heading down the path that provides ample material for us here at B&C--my prayer is that they do in fact change their methods and man-centered ways and put us out of commission--I spent a lot of years under the influence of this ministry and sincerely desire to someday see the old ship on the right course.

**You will notice that FBCH does not fail to mention what is most important to them--numbers and this standard little quip:

"Young ladies are not permitted to wear pants, gauchos, or walking shorts at any time."

Externalism, pragmatism, decisionism, narcissism, and good old-fashioned anthropocentrism--all the essential ingredients for youth ministry Hammond-style!

Any other thoughts?

Phineas

44 comments:

Josh said...

I have to admit, it looks like most of the youth conference brochures of every flavor that I've ever seen. Doesn't mean it's ok...just that it doesn't seem to be peculiar to FBCH.

Josh

P.S. This is my first comment on your blog--love reading it...keep up the good work guys!

PT Barnum said...

Josh,

It may be that I have been living under a rock in regards to youth ministry. I have seen brochures for two recent youth meetings that actually made mention of spiritual goals and also some fun events for the teens. I recently received a brochure in the mail for FBCH's Women's Spectacular--very little if anything is mentioned about spiritual things but a whole lot about how to win a photo shoot with Cindy Schaap or a signed KJV Bible!

I do not doubt that others mention activities and such, but the ones that I have run across have much more space devoted to the main purpose of a youth meeting.

Glad to have you under the big top--don't forget to check out the bearded lady and the dancing bear! Also do yourself a favor and try winning one of those giant stuffed animals on the midway!

Matthew

Mike Y said...

Ahhh, one of my favorite topics-- not!

My wife and I have certainly participated in more than a few youth conferences over the years while at North Valley.

While I would agree with you that it'd be nice to see some spiritual goals listed, I'm not sure that's all too relevant given what they're likely to be taught anyway.

I still believe the root of the problem is what needs treating as opposed to the symptoms. But then again, given the crowd they cater to, I can't honestly expect attendance will be great if they make the heart and mind change.

Regardless, thanks for keeping us up to date on what's going on. And not that I would want to see ya put out of business, but it would be nice to see God work there in Hammond.

JK said...

I remember being flattered to be one of the "noses"; now I wish I could warn the kids not to get excited about being one in 10,000. They might end up as one of 2,000 (give or take) for one of the HAC/FBCH unofficial "black" baptism days, luring minority children down to the portable baptismal trough so they can be one of 25,000 noses.

Once you've seen and done it, being a number isn't at all exciting. It's great marketing, though. And to quote an HAC teacher, "God's business is the biggest business in the world."

reglerjoe said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PT Barnum said...

JK,

Was that Forrest Young who used to say that? I believe he also came up with the phrase, "Mama always said that life is like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're gonna get"!

No doubt the seats and altars will be overflowing next week at YC--sadly very little worth travelling over 5 miles for will be offered.

Thanks again, JK, for coming to our three ringed show! Have a great week and give us some reports on YC 2006 as the numbers are reported!

matthew

PT Barnum said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PT Barnum said...

JK,

Was that Forrest Young who used to say that? I believe he also came up with the phrase, "Mama always said that life is like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're gonna get"!

No doubt the seats and altars will be overflowing next week at YC--sadly very little worth travelling over 5 miles for will be offered.

Thanks again, JK, for coming to our three ringed show! Have a great week and give us some reports on YC 2006 as the numbers are reported!

matthew

JK said...

Actually, as an education major, I think I heard it from Mr. Mitchell; someone whose classes I appreciate more all the time. Forrest may have said it in Church Ed, too.

I'm actually interested to see if the YC 10K will be all teens or if the Wednesday night church crowd will be considered in total to get that number. Interestingly, it will never be reported as a massive failure if fewer than 10K show up, but reported as an unprecedented success if more than 10K do. Does that sound at all like the business or political world? Should it? At what point or under what circumstances does it not matter?

JK said...

Oh, and I think the official version is that "God's business is the greatest business in the world." Forrest would probably use that one, but Mr. Mitchell used the one I quoted earlier. Pastor Schaap uses the official one frequently.

maranatha man said...

When I examined the Youth Conference brochere I noticed "the hype" is still the same. Brother Hyles was the King of "hype." Make it look BIG! Promote! Push! Then push some more! Make everything look bigger and better! If this doesn't work then manipulate! Use guilt! Use perks! Use give aways! By the way, isn't this just good leadership skills? NOT!!!!!!

BeckyJoie said...

While I understand that the youth culture is saturated with entertainment and it can be helpful to include some entertainment(pure, clean fun as opposed to the garbage of Hollywood), I think that a youth conference should be focused primarily on teaching with some fun thrown in. A one night youth event that is mostly fun might be ok as long as there is a teaching and a spiritual focus throughout the night and most other nights of youth group but a conference, well, that is suppose to be a conference-where you learn. Right?

PT Barnum said...

Just a quick note not related to this post--if you are viewing B&C with Internet Explorer you need to stop. Download Mozilla Firefox for a more enjoyable circus experience!

Matthew

Joshua R said...

That's Mozilla Firefox---a FREE download available @ mozilla.com. Here at B&C we desire only the best for our readership.

Carry on.

JK said...

Is Mozilla B&C's first sponsor?

PT Barnum said...

Not officially--with the pictures we have in the sidebar of our blog, Internet Explorer pushes all of them down to the bottom of the page. After numerous complaints we have decided to make a resolution here at B&C.

Mozilla is the only true and 100% perfect web browser--all others are fake and tools of Satan and the new world religion! If I could I would throw out all the other browsers into our crowd of circusers and encourage you to rip them apart!

Dr. Matthew Richards (honorary of course)

BeckyJoie said...

LOL

Edward said...

I have never seen such straining at nats in all of my life! Aren't there better things for you all to do than to analyze every piece of material that comes out of Hammond? We are not the enemy but you obviously believe that we are..why not attack the devil and the world instead of God's people?

Youth Conference is going to be a great event for over 10,000 young people...decisions will be made that will last for a lifetime. I made decisions at camps and confrences as a young person that I still hold to today. You are nothing more than modern day Pharissees looking down your snoots at those of us who are trying our best to do what we know to be right. I honestly hope that no unsaved people find this blog...talk about petty and obvious jealousy shining thru! You have sunk to new levels. Ed

reglerjoe said...

The jealousy has card has been played yet again.

BeckyJoie said...

I'm not jealous-I'm part of a thriving youth ministry with kids who love the Lord, read their Bibles, witness and reach out to others. But they also know how to have fun. They do have discernment and expect a spiritual focus at every activity whether it is a fun night or regular youth night. They picked their own theme verse and stuck to it before the youth leaders even knew it. We had planned to bring up a couple of ideas but they had already decided on the verses. So, I have nothing to be jealous of. Our youth don't go to FBCH conferences, in fact, they don't even know about FBCH. They just love Jesus and go to conferences on Inductive Bible Study courses, youth evangelism, etc. They would probably be shocked if they knew what went on at FBCH youth conferences although entertaining at times. (By the way, our church is only two years old and it already has high numbers in youth ministry in spite of no budget,no gimmicks
(although some fun is thrown in, it's not the draw to get people there. The fun we throw in is not advertised before hand) and staffed by all volunteer leaders (as is the church). That is because it is focused on the Bible and discipling. So though large in number, they are growing in spiritual focus as well. Not that numbers are as important as spiritual growth, but just because you folks at FBCH brag so much about numbers. I think the numbers of our youth population is a large porportion for the age and size of the church.)

Edward said...

Truth hurts, doesn't it? The best way to criticize First Baptist Church is to biuld a church of your own bigger and better. Looks like you ingrates have a lot of work to do...maybe if you try really hard and work at it for say 100 years or so you can have a church like FBC to call home...then I will listen to your complaints.

It is amazing to me how people who have been in the ministry for a few years or currently are not in any ministry can find the nerve to criticize those who have been serving the Lord for decades. I think Dr. Evans used to say that you measure Christian service in decades not years. Ed

reglerjoe said...

I meant to say earlier: "The jealousy card has been played yet again."



Ed said:
"Truth hurts, doesn't it? The best way to criticize First Baptist Church is to biuld a church of your own bigger and better. Looks like you ingrates have a lot of work to do...maybe if you try really hard and work at it for say 100 years or so you can have a church like FBC to call home...then I will listen to your complaints."

I guess one can only critique doctrine and methods coming from churches that are smaller than ours?

Too bad you don't hold your heros to the same standard. How many fundamental Baptist preachers criticize the methods and doctrine coming from Joel Osteen, the TBN crowd, and the Warren/Hybels crowd, and yet their churches are larger than most IFB churches (including FBCH). The next time Dr. Schaap is blasting the likes of Osteen and Warren, make sure you share with him your mature Christian perspective.

Say, "Hey, Preacher, I don't think you should criticize Osteen and Warren 'cause your church isn't as big as theirs...so your insights are completely irrelevant. Build FBCH bigger than theirs and then maybe I'll listen to your complaints."

LOL

[Predicting Ed's response to this comment: "those aren't real churches 'cause they don't go soul winning and they're not KJV only."]

BeckyJoie said...

I grew up in ministry, Ed, and saw it all (FBCH ministry methods) first hand. I'm not new to ministry. Being jealous implies wanting what someone else has. I had enough Hyles methodology in my life to know that I never, ever want it again. All I want is to be a disciple of Jesus and to make more disciples for Him. No offense, Ed, but you really need to read what you write. Every time you write something, you can't help but defame us with name calling and Kindergarten sounding accusations. Why can't you just answer the critiques about the practices rather than spew nails at the questioners? How are you defending your church's practices with Scripture when you are unscripturally attacking people? We are not attacking the people but questioning the practices. We may have to implicate a few of the leaders who promote the practices but we are not sitting here calling you names as many of your people do to us. It's so elementary and yet you folks often miss the points being made. I don't get it.

Mike Y said...

Edward,

Get your terms right, Bud! Calling us Pharisees. Seems to me that if we were Pharisees we might actually get along well with you.

But you've attacked us for having no standards, for not keeping the KJV, for not soul winning, etc.

Please! You really come across as dumb as a box of rocks. So, if you're going to attack and criticize us, which I believe you will continue to do, then pick an angle and stick with it. Or, you could just grow up, which would be a better deal for all of us.

Thanks,

Mike

Edward said...

I love the way you guys use the big fancy hundered dollar words to describe First Baptist. You probably don't even know what they mean yet you throw them around like you use them in casual convresation! Youth Conference was a blessing last night and we officially had over 10,100 teens in attendance! Praise the Lord! Many decisions were made and I cannot wait for the closing services...Pastor Schaap works well with the teens and I have no doubt that much good will be accomplished.

Ed

BeckyJoie said...

Ok, Ed, since you don't like the million dollar words, let me put the peanutbutter and jelly on the bottom shelf for you. I've heard plenty of your "My daddy is bigger than your daddy" rhetoric. We have the same Father(unless you are considering Hyles your Pappa). Instead, just answer the questions. A. Why is there no mention of teaching at that link on first glance? B. Why are numbers more important. Why doesn't it mention the reason as being to get many saved or to get many trained in the faith so they can disciple others?
C. If there is long term fruit from these youth conferences, what is the long term fruit? D. Why is the bigger focus on achievement in singing or sports and meeting the Christian celebrities at the altar to receive a trophy and not on meeting Christ at the altar and having a closer walk with Him and receiving a reward in heaven? E. Why is it more necessary to mention that girls can't wear gauchos(modified cuolottes), walking shorts, etc. but no mention of bringing your Bible or unsaved kids, making a difference in the world that teens live in, etc.

rabbi-philosopher said...

A little off topic; I've been thinking of the renewal of hostilities in the middle east in the last couple of days.
Maybe this is just another one; but you never know. Certainly the tension in the middle east continues to rise with the growing threat of Islam. If Scripture portends anything it's this; the middle east will explode.

Islam obviously serves Satan. All the matches, paper, wood and gasoline exist in an ever more heating mound. Through in a little nuclear explosion and it all goes up in flames.

On the other hand the announced attendance at First Baptist Hyles last night was 10100 teens; give or take a thousand or so! I guess we don't need to contemplate things of greater import.

Mike Hess said...

Edward,

Honestly...after reading what several people have written about FBCH/HAC can you honestly say that there is absolutely NO MERIT whatsoever to our concerns? Or, are you going to push all of this under the rug once again and use the typical response of calling us bitter and liberal.

Matthew,

Once again another great post. This blog is having an impact and that is becoming more and more obvious with each of the posts that both you and Josh make. Keep up the good work!

Mike

Gordy said...

If you don't believe that numbers are the most important thing to them, just look at youthconferencehammond.com and see what is highlighted.

frasure said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mike Y said...

Hey frasure,

How about leaving your identity rather than use you blogger ID that was apparently created to leave such a chicken comment!

Talk about trying to lay on a guilt trip! I guess it's pretty typical. And if you'd like to try to employ some psychology here, you may want to know that you've actually projected your own insecurities onto these guys.

Come back when you have a little courage.

-Mike

PT Barnum said...

Frasure,

You assume quite a bit in your anonymous post. First of all let me say that your comments are welcome and we hope that you will continue to visit us here under the big top!

Just so we are on the same page, you assume that the Richards boys are:

1. Bitter
2. Betrayers
3. Traitors
4. Guilty
5. Critical
6. Shameful
7. We have betrayed an awful lot

Why don't you tell us what your really think? I certainly pray that FBCH thrives someday--you have provided no proof--only numbers and cute ideas like:

1. Thriving
2. God's hand upon FBCH because of #
3. Marriages saved by Schaap
4. Souls saved by Schaap
5. Boosted soulwinning program
6. Lives transformed at a rapid pace
7. Blossoming
8. Much learning
9. Marriages being built
10.Spiritually sick fixed at FBCH
11.Ignorant folk fixed at FBCH
12.FBCH is a home for families

I hope I did not miss any--not sure that there is anything of substance there--can't say that I am much surprised by the emotional response. You sound very much like the others who have come to say that we have turned our back on our home. We have left the hysteric camp in Fundamentalism and absolutely have turned our back on the narcissistic, anthropocentric, legalistic, and Ruckmanistic ministry we were raised up in--we detest the errors found in any ministry, but certainly love the people we know who are entangled in such a web.

You are right on one thing--you did not accuse us of turning our backs on the LORD Jesus Christ. Even you would have to admit that we are 100% devoted to our LORD and Savior and our main desire is to bring honor and glory to Him.

Matthew

frasure said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
frasure said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PT Barnum said...

Frasure,

I will expose heresy wherever it is found. What kind of ethics would leave false teaching unchecked? I have over 20 family members who are members at FBCH--some of the greatest people I have ever known attend church there. We have tried the letter route with Pastor Schaap--they obviously found their way into the infamous garbage can. Funny how he misrepresented the letter before he threw it away. I asked specific questions and never received any responses. You do not have to visit us here under the tent, but you are free to come and voice your opinions as often as you would like. God bless you and your family and I will continue to pray that you would seek to glorify God first and not sentiment or nostalgia.

St. Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

"Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

If standing against fallacious and erroneous teachings saddens you, I would ask you where YOUR ethics are?

Matthew

Mike Hess said...

Frasure,

If I have read you correctly, your caricature of EVERYONE who leaves FBCH for doctrinal and heretical issues is a traitor and has betrayed the faith??? That is a rather harsh accusation. Besides numbers and decisions, could you please give me some substantive evidence that Schaap's teaching is producing New Testament type of growth that we find in the Scriptures?

We all know about the 25,000 baptisms and the over 10,000 young people that attended YC. All of those numbers were displayed in a wonderful example of Christ-like humility. No one would have known those numbers due to the humility displayed by Schaap. It is not all about the numbers right??? If all of these "decisions" have actually produced regenerate converts, you should all be looking to build an auditorium that at least doubles the seating capacity that you have now instead of having to rope off entire sections.

Nevertheless, I am glad that you have visited this blog and have at least taken the time to read about the many unbiblical practices that go on at FBCH.

Have a fabulous day!

Mike

Joshua R said...

Mr. Frasure,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to visit the blog and to share both your opinions and your heart with us. I mean that sincerely, and we also make our email addresses available in our profiles for more personal interaction if you so desire. This blog is designed for comments from both those who love anything and everything FBCH, and those who see serious dangers in the ministry there.

What I would first address is your purported proof of FBCH’s success and approval by the Lord by way of numbers and alleged “thriving”. It is very obvious to most of us that many things appear to be thriving on both Sibley and Burr streets. From a casual glance things certainly appear that way—the new stadium with a capacity of 7500 seating, the beautiful new front entrance to HAC, the 25,000 baptisms in ‘05, the 10,000+ adolescents, teens, and otherwise at the YC. Unfortunately, it would be folly to use these as proof of successful ministry. If this were the case, the Mormons, Muslims, and others would also be living proof of successful ministry. Howbeit, we know that is not the case.

Regarding FBCH and her related ministries being our “home”, what exactly does that indicate to you that we should do then? Since we spent many years there, are we mandated to keep quiet about the largely unscriptural practices that abound? Something unfortunate that has been rampant especially for our generation in Hammond is this: there has been and apparently still is an utter absence of any accountability. Oh, there may be some accountability mentioned from time to time, but as far as the accountability of the church, her former and current pastors and their preaching, it is absolutely AWOL so to speak. This is only bolstered by the fact that the vast majority if not all of your relations churchwide are with other HAC grads and their churches(most other historic IFB churches/schools parted ways with FBCH/HAC long ago for the sake of accountability). That makes for real harmony and again, an absence of accountability. After all, FBCH is the queen mother church so to speak and her former pastor was allegedly a historical figure in the church age.

As for bitterness, you alleged that we have this and are traitors as well. Interestingly enough, you probably do not even know us personally considering that you decided to post anonymously. Is it either fair or honest to hurl these insults at us without knowing us personally? I urge you to ask my family in Northwest Indiana or any others that know us well if we are indeed “traitorous” or “bitter”. I don’t believe that they could honestly say that we are. We have come to realize that it is the easiest defense of FBCH and her practices to label those who voice their contrary opinions as bitter. {{{sigh}}} You have seemingly equated our issues with FBCH with bitterness toward the Lord. You have equated this blog itself with “a personal attack”...? May I refer you to Galatians 1:10 on the masthead of B & C?

What Pastor Schaap and the faculty/staff of the college should understand is that their words should be held to accountability. One who pastors such a large congregation should know this. Furthermore, we have not had to listen to or read much to find unbiblical statements.

Mike Y said...

As for my anonymity, I looked at your pic and you seem like you're a pretty big guy so I'll remain "frasure" to you.

Well Frasure, you succeeded in giving me a good laugh. So, thanks for that.

And for these guys attacking your friend, I don't see them really doing it here. And I do believe they've been sensitive about coming off as attacking for the sake of their family members still there and for others whom they respect.

In fact, we had one person on here who was posing as Schaap and none of us stood for it. We each may have our differences with the ministry there, but I don't think anyone here is willing to tolerate mindless bashing.

It does, however, appear as though toes are getting stepped on a bit. I think the guys have tried to be objective in comparing actual practices vs. what's in scripture.

In fact, the really big argument on this post was whether they should have mentioned something spiritual on the flyer.

Now, if I were to have written this, I probably would have been more scathing than they were. But then again, I've pretty much got my family out of this stuff.

Take care and I do appreciate the change in tone in your later posts.

-Mike

reglerjoe said...

Frasure,

I praise God for all the good that is done at FBCH. I do believe many souls are saved and many lives are changed because of the ministry...but does that give FBCH the right to engage in and spread doctrinal error?

Your defense basically boils down to "We are doing good stuff, so you have no right to criticize!" In essence, your defense of your ministry is the same that Rick Warren, charismatics, and even religious cults use.

The changed lives, the rescued marriages, the recovered addicts...hundreds of heretical ministries claim these results. I personally know a man who was "saved" out of a drunkard's lifestyle because of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

My point is this: what is done at FBCH is done in plenty of other churches all around the country, and often to a greater extent.

Results do not prove doctrinal correctness.

Gordy said...

My church sent 31 teens to the youth conference. My pastor grew up at FBCH and graduated from HAC. He went along on the trip. Yesterday, I was talking to him about it and he made a comment that actually stunned me. He has never said anything negative about FBCH or HAC, but he told me he didn't really care for the preaching at youth conference. He said it was long on stories and short on Bible. He actually said they did not get much Bible while they were there. This comes from a man who has several pictures of Bro. Hyles in his office at church. I think that speaks volumes. How can teens' lives be transformed apart from the preaching of the Bible.

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. Psalm 119:9

Mike Hess said...

Gordy,

Excellent point and I would be persuaded to think that is exactly the point that both Mattew and Josh are trying to make. Without biblical preaching you are left with nothing more than a shallow anecdote that does nothing to transform lives into the image of Christ. Sure, you may get a multitude of "decisions" but usually those do not last very long without a solid foundation.

Good thoughts!

Mike

David M. Coe said...

Ed,

That is a funny thing to say -

"...and I can't wait for the closing services..."

Seems to me that if everything is so great - you would dread seeing the closing services.

Dave

Charles Whisnant said...

Having personally attending a J. Frank Norris school, having personally attended Hyles-Anderson College, Having personally pastored four churches for the last 40 years, I think I know something of what you speak. While I would say most of these pastors do have a desire to see people saved, I have learned that just because you have decisions for Christ, doesn't mean you deny the teachng of the Doctrines of the Word of God. I would like to thank that I am still a Baptist, Fundamental, Pre-Trib, but have come to know that God is sovereign and He is the object of our Worship. I would also like to think that the book "The Gospel According to Jesus" has changed my view of preaching the Gospel and the way I preach/teach theWord of God, and the way we are to do ministry.

jms said...

Blog deeper! I would love to see you delve deeper into why the standard "woman are not permitted to wear..." is always on the top of the lists of fundamentalists. If you step back and look at the big picture, you have to see that Xtreme Fundamentalism is full of misogynists and controlling men who want to "keep women in their place". (I bet the Xtremers will call me a feminist by the end of my post). Reading through the catalog of Hyles Anderson College, I see that the "degree" programs for women have classes like sewing, cooking, and (my favorite) "Understanding Your Man". Well, if I am going to take college courses, I'd much rather walk away with an accredited degree that will help me find a career in life, but - there's no Nursing, Accounting, or Biology courses for women at Hyles! Nope, you can be a school teacher or a minister's wife, but you aren't getting a "degree" of anything else from there. Really, it is the year 2005. Women can vote (and I've heard them preach against that one too), and more and more women must join the workforce as the cost of living, taxes, and real estate are so high. I am being an excellent example to my daughters by having a career. God forbid, but if a woman's husband dropped dead of a heart attack tomorrow (or left her for the church secretary), how would she financially support herself?! There is a HUGE world out there, and I want my daughters to experience it...science, an astronaut, marine biology, a writer...SHE can do anything! DEBORAH WAS A JUDGE (in the Bible). Love to hear those Xtremers choke over that one!
AND MY BIGGEST CONCERN WITH FUNDAMENTALISM: EVER HEAR THEM PREACH OR SPEAK AGAINST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE??!! NOPE. Because wife-beating is still legal in their minds. I'd LOVE to anonymously survey Hyle-ites (and other cults) and see how many of the women have been hit by their spouse, or live in fear of their spouse. "You've come a long way, baby" ...but not far enough when it comes to the mentality of xtreme fundamentalists.