tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post115319157429680613..comments2023-10-25T10:40:56.554-05:00Comments on bread and circuses: Christian FruitMatthew Richardshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11081538726242476449noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1154651154083311882006-08-03T19:25:00.000-05:002006-08-03T19:25:00.000-05:00I just wanted to thank those of you who contribute...I just wanted to thank those of you who contributed to this thread. I truly appreciate all of the kind words regarding my mother--she was a wonderful Christian woman. Over the past 10 years since her passing I have struggled with many questions concerning her suffering and death. The LORD has taught me some valuable lessons about life and His Sovereign rule in the lives of His children. I am so grateful that I serve an all-powerful and Sovereign God! <BR/><BR/>Romans 11:36 NASB "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." <BR/><BR/>Matthew<BR/><BR/>We will be posting a new entry within the next couple of days.Matthew Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081538726242476449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1154032266704218102006-07-27T15:31:00.000-05:002006-07-27T15:31:00.000-05:00More on Dr. Dave Jasper's resignation from Maranat...More on Dr. Dave Jasper's resignation from Maranatha Baptist Bible College.<BR/><BR/>See Sharper Iron!<BR/><BR/>Personally I've always felt I'm just a hair bredth away from moral failure of the spectacularly bad sort.<BR/><BR/>Dave Jasper apparently has issues. Welcome to the club.<BR/><BR/>Jack Schaap, whom I don't know, apparently has issues. Welcome to the club.<BR/><BR/>Matt, Josh, Mike, Mike 'chelle; without personally knowing you I know this. You all have issues.<BR/><BR/>May God protect us from ourselves!S.G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09746381491495106590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153754269358712582006-07-24T10:17:00.000-05:002006-07-24T10:17:00.000-05:00Rabbi,Excellent quote, rabbi. It is amazing how t...Rabbi,<BR/><BR/>Excellent quote, rabbi. It is amazing how the only defense of such circus thinking is typically to reference the fact that DL Moody gave away a squirrel in a cage and was criticized for it by the malcontents in Chicago back in the day. <BR/><BR/>Pragmatism is alive and well in many churches of all different stripes--FBCH has learned how to work this to her best advantage numerically. I enjoy a circus as much as the next guy, but sooner or later you need to eat something besides an elephant ear or cotton candy!<BR/><BR/>MatthewMatthew Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081538726242476449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153740208440029632006-07-24T06:23:00.000-05:002006-07-24T06:23:00.000-05:00Found on Albertmohler.com this a.m.Should be filed...Found on Albertmohler.com this a.m.<BR/>Should be filed in the "worship vs circus" file.<BR/>"Tozer takes his argument further: "It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend the meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God's professed children are bored with Him for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments."<BR/><BR/>This has influenced the whole pattern of church life and even brought into being a new type of church architecture designed to house the golden calf. So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped candy technique has so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of teachings of Christ and His apostles. Any objection to the carryings-on of our present gold calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, "But we are winning them." And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world's treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total commitment to Christ?<BR/><BR/>Of course, the answer to all of these questions is "no."S.G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09746381491495106590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153734046787596442006-07-24T04:40:00.000-05:002006-07-24T04:40:00.000-05:00Ed,Funny how you credit "institutions" with making...Ed,<BR/><BR/>Funny how you credit "institutions" with making you the man you are today (a blind loyalist) instead of God Himself. Again, nothing new just the same old story of blind loyalty that fails to answer the questions.<BR/><BR/>If I based "success" the way you are basing "success" - growth, numbers, and facilities (that are not filled on a consistent basis with entire sections roped off, this after 25,000 so called converts were baptized last year) then I would be lead to believe that the Mafia is incredibly successful as well. They have a high success rate, they make good money, and intimidate people rather successfully. <BR/><BR/>Ed - you are holding a glass with a hole on the bottom and it is time that you start looking at the facts. Questions have been asked by both Matthew and Josh that you have blatantly ignored and it would be nice to see those questions answered instead of ignored.<BR/><BR/>Have a fabulous day!<BR/><BR/>MikeMike Hesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926380982576801402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153526165474427252006-07-21T18:56:00.000-05:002006-07-21T18:56:00.000-05:00I wanted to thank everyone who posted kind words c...I wanted to thank everyone who posted kind words concerning my mother and her life. I think what Josh and I want is for people to understand that we have some fond memories of the people who impacted us at FBCH. Ed's post does not even deserve a response from me at this point--maybe later.<BR/><BR/>MatthewMatthew Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081538726242476449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153505898644120922006-07-21T13:18:00.000-05:002006-07-21T13:18:00.000-05:00Oh, that's good, Ed. Prophesy evil against your pe...Oh, that's good, Ed. Prophesy evil against your perceived "enemies". <BR/><BR/>I have no axe to grind but that HAC/FBCH have taught and practiced UNBIBLICAL things. That is why my memories of the place are negative. I had been raised to think Hyles was the superman of Christianity, pointing men to God. I was deeply disappointed to see man- worship encouraged to the point it was more emminent than God worship. Do you honestly think it was biblical for the Hyles Singing group to sing "Oh How I love Brother Hyles" instead of "Oh,How I love Jesus"? Do you honestly think it is biblical to preach a whole sermon with only one or two references to a verse never studying the passage? (2 Timothy 2:15 says "rightly dividing the Word of truth"-dividing means dissecting and expounding on that study.) How do cute stories with only a few Scripture references fulfill Paul's command to preach the Word? I have not been in Hammond in 15 or so years but when I was there, I began to be apalled that my well-taken notes contained few if any Scripture references to back up sermon points. Premises, not Scriptures were preached and there was little or no support other than the "preach it, Brother Hyles" or "park it there, WoooHooo". After this, I made an effort to listen more closely for references because I wanted to believe that there really were some but there still weren't. I admit I previously had joined in the Hyles worship movement. But the sermon notes didn't lie. Scripture was absent. Perhaps it is different now. I really have only listened to one or two of FBCH's recent sermons. I didn't find them impressive, although I really used to think highly of Pastor Schaap when I was there thinking his sermons had more depth than his F.I. L.'s. I will listen to a few more of his recent sermons, though online, Ed, to give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps things have changed.<BR/> <BR/>ED says:Looks like those who have the issues also have issues with the scriptures, soulwinning, and separation/standards.<BR/>Me: Wrong! I witness, not just once a week in a group program but daily as opportunities arise.I read and study the Bible daily giving it a high priority in my life. I live a separated life style. Noone in my neighborhood misses that point, though I don't brag about it, I just live it and this has led to my ability to witness to them because those who I had not yet witnessed to asked questions as to the reason of the hope that is in me. The light shines in darkness, Ed. Why is it that you assume so much about people you do not know? I would venture to say that you and I are not vastly different in the majority of our standards, just in application/interpretation of them. I have biblical standards of behavior and dress. I just don't place extra-biblical standards on myself and others, nor do I give the external a higher status of priority than the inner man. If a standard is not in the Bible or implied in context of a passage, then I don't hold to a practice as a conviction. If it is, I do. I have preferences and convictions but the only things I would stake my life on are those clearly delineated in the Bible as truth, not man's ideas. <BR/><BR/> Standards are important. More important than standards, though, is doctrine. <BR/><BR/>You stated this, ED:<BR/>I would love to see some scriptural support for the attacks leveled here against Dr. Hyles and Dr. Schaap. I won't hold my breathe because I already know that there is not any support...actualy there is much in the way of rebuke for this kind of bile spewing. <BR/><BR/>Me: Scriptural support for rebuking heresy and fleshly practices: <BR/>Supporting Reference #1: 1 Timothy 5:19-21. <BR/>Note: Many people have tried to privately rebuke the leadership at FBCH and HAC with at least two witnesses, but the rebukes have gone unheeded. Many have tried to intreat them as elders, but they were stomped out. Now the leaders must be rebuked before all without partiality because of them being leaders or likeable people. Dr. Hyles and Dr. Schaapp were both likeable, fatherly or grandfatherly in appearance to many but that does not make them above analysis. Their actions and teaching are suppose to be above reproach so that no one can find things to criticize. I realize that none are perfect but all are suppose to be humble and willing to be corrected, easy to be intreated,etc. according to James 3:17. I don't see this. I see haughty hatred in response. <BR/>Supporting Reference #2 : Titus 1:6-13<BR/>Note: This applies to those who teach their own doctrine and refuse to teach the whole counsel of God, leading whole households astray. Much of the doctrine and practices taught by Pastor Hyles was his own. His beliefs on the role of repentence for salvation, the role of the Bible translation in salvation, the practice of ignoring accusations against preacher boys even when proof and witnesses are available, teaching people to seek for rewards on earth for spiritual actions and praise of man, controlling and lording over his deacons and congregation, bragging that he could ask any of them to jump off a bridge and they would ask "from how high?" on the way down, etc. There is so much unbiblical teaching and practice that there is not enough room to post it all and thus, the need for <BR/>B & C to keep blogging about it. How can you justify these above mentioned things as biblical? How can you ignore the evidence given by so many people? My heart breaks for your apparent willing blindness.<BR/>Here's more support for the expose of FBCH and other ministries which don't follow the truth fully.<BR/>Reference #3: 2 Timothy 4:1-5, especially verse 2. <BR/>Note:We are told to reprove unbiblical things and exhort people unto strong doctrine.<BR/><BR/>For many years I stuck my head in the sand and assumed that the need to expose the error was unnecessary. But this error has continued in spite of a decade of people discovering the truth and leaving. Error, unexposed will continue to grow like nightshade in the dark. Therefore, I have joined the Richards and others who continue to confront the error. I'm not on a witch hunt to look for more error. I only tell of the error I already know of. I have way too many important things going on in my life than to go looking for the trouble and persecution that comes to those who stand up to the Hyles movement. (I have received some of this.) But it is part of my call to guard the good deposit. So therefore, if it includes debating issues, I will do it. Ed, we don't attack Hyles or Schaap, only their actions/false doctrines. On the contrary, those of you who feel the urge to defend them, don't defend their actions, you side step the issues and defend their reputations by attacking us personally. Why not really look at the issues, Ed? You can continue to falsely attack me and others but you still are responsible for the truth to which you are exposed.BeckyJoiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14148874214990884785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153454269892936522006-07-20T22:57:00.000-05:002006-07-20T22:57:00.000-05:00What a touching story of your mom, guys.I'm also g...What a touching story of your mom, guys.<BR/><BR/>I'm also glad you had some good memories at HAC/ FBCH. I've tried very hard to think of some myself, but I have few: 1. The beauty of hearing so many voices singing the hymns 2. Clowning for some college promo event. I think it was to welcome new students or something. I don't remember, but I had fun hiding behind clown make-up. (Kind of a shallow memories here but at least positive ones.) The most significant memory I had was singing on the bus with the bus kids. I loved my Spanish route kids, singing in Spanish church and Sunday School, telling ninos and chicos about Jesus. I was in this ministry one year-the rest of the time I had been in regular bus ministry and foster club in ValPo and Hammond. I hope that some of the kids were brought to closer faith but we had no way to follow up so I won't know until heaven.<BR/><BR/>Other than these things, I have no other positive memories. I think this is due to the era in which I attended perhaps although someone else in here attended then as well and has alot of good memories. I guess it has to do with who you knew and who you were. I became aware of some things which were going on that were wrong. It kind of shattered my idolatrous view of Hyles and his church and school. Unlike, one of the other commenters, I did not have good experiences with the ladies nights. Many shocking and unbiblical things were happening in front of my eyes and though I tried to leave, I was led back in by security. I don't understand how someone had a good time there but I'm glad they apparently didn't witness what I did.<BR/><BR/>The reprecussions did not end when I left,nor in fact until many years later. I was bitter at first, because I had a hard time understanding how people who called themselves Christians could do the things which I saw people do, still representing the faith and being examplified. I received the negative reprecussions for the false teaching in more ways than one in my life from people who still were star-eyed for the whole Hyles movement. I have forgiven those who have hurt me and those I love. But I will expose the erroroneous doctrine and unscriptural behavior which I've have found to be contrary to the truth. I will expose it not to personally attack anyone, but to prevent others from falling into the web of deception which many of the decievers are themselves prey to. I do not hold bitterness toward the people. Any one of us is capable of error. We all have fallen natures. None of us are perfect, though we should strive for it. I'm not angry at people. I'm angry at the error and the sin which are fiery darts shot by the wicked one to devour believers. Many people stung by these darts are forever wounded, never to heal. Some even die. I don't want any more believers to be devoured. So, please, Edward and anyone else from HAC/FBCH: I beg of you to listen to the words we say. Don't take things as an all out attack on you. If anyone have ears to hear, let him hear. May anything that is not what the Spirit says fall on deaf ears but let the deaf ears of those who would hear the truth be opened.BeckyJoiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14148874214990884785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153451199764506132006-07-20T22:06:00.000-05:002006-07-20T22:06:00.000-05:00Edward,Speaking of talking out of both sides of th...Edward,<BR/><BR/>Speaking of talking out of both sides of their mouths....I do recall the fact that Hyles talked about what a model marriage he had while he neglected his wife for years and failed to even mention her publicly for years as well. Or....should we talk about people like Ray Young who would talk about knocking on doors and getting people down the aisle and yet no one ever knew when he did that himself. <BR/><BR/>Again, Edward, you have failed to show any consistency at all. Nothing new...just the same sad story of ignoring facts in the name of blind loyalty.<BR/><BR/>Have a fabulous day!<BR/><BR/>MikeMike Hesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926380982576801402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153278942513801832006-07-18T22:15:00.000-05:002006-07-18T22:15:00.000-05:00Matthew and Josh,I didn't know your mom, but I hea...Matthew and Josh,<BR/><BR/>I didn't know your mom, but I heard wonderful things about her from my mother-in-law-to-be as your mom physically struggled to survive. And of course Pastor Hyles regularly mentioned how valiantly she battled cancer.<BR/><BR/>I, too, am thankful for moms who don't give in to the status quo and who possess the true fruit of the spirit. I had similar discussions with my mom (where I was "belligerent and foolishly parroting unorthodox and unscriptural beliefs that I learned at college"), and thankfully she loved me through it all. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for highlighting these qualities and for reminding us of what types of people are most worth remembering.<BR/><BR/>jkJKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13425246921438871026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153274619837825642006-07-18T21:03:00.000-05:002006-07-18T21:03:00.000-05:00Guys,This was a nice story and I'm glad you chose ...Guys,<BR/><BR/>This was a nice story and I'm glad you chose to share it with us. I'm sure it was tough.<BR/><BR/>With respect to the criticism, I cannot tell you that it will subside. It probably won't. But I do like the fact that you're trying to avoid personal attacks and simply focus on doctrine. I think your mom would be proud.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>-MikeMike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24687448.post-1153272269188648312006-07-18T20:24:00.000-05:002006-07-18T20:24:00.000-05:00Matthew and Joshua,That was really great. Having ...Matthew and Joshua,<BR/><BR/>That was really great. Having lost my mother four years ago to colon cancer when whe was only 57 I can empathize a bit with what you went through. Nevertheless, I rejoice that your mother is now "absent from the body and present with the Lord". I also think that those from FBCH who are loyalists should objectively look at what is posted here and sincerely take a look at the Scriptures and see if what you are saying is indeed wrong or correct. <BR/><BR/>My wife and I both have some good memories of HAC/FBCH. It should also go without saying that the foundation of our lives is not based on sentimental feelings, rather on the truth of God's Word. <BR/><BR/>Keep up the good work guys!!!<BR/><BR/>MikeMike Hesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01926380982576801402noreply@blogger.com